What You Need To Know About Pedal Clones
This weeks Monday Monolog is all about cloning. How can companies make what seems to be exact copies of other popular pedals?
https://www.thejhsshow.com/
https://www.jhspedals.info/
JHS Fresh Clips: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTN1OwPMtjgH3hQAxvF-l2Q
#jhs #thejhsshow #clones #guitrapedal #princeoftone #dukeoftone #kingoftone #analogman #tradedress
#Pedal #Clones
Originally posted by UCjfbkA4jJkJY5g0wbjuoZWA at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJnwsHXFFKs
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Trade dress is the most complicated topic. Just to make it even more confusing a puzzling fact: You can lose your trademark andor-dress right (to a certain extent) on it, when you are so well known, that your product becomes a „category name“ for that product.
and soooo much more
Jhs did it with the Bonsai and others lol. I get where you are coming from, but KHS does the same thing.
Honest question:
Where do modelers/sims/plug-ins fall into this argument? They obviously aren't copying the circuits, but they are copying the sound and many are actually infringing on the trade dress or very closely mimicking,.or at least referencing, the names or the original. And many of the people/companies creating these soft copies are well known, established brands who are copying other well known established brands.
Many of the "they're hurting the business and finances of the original" arguments would seem to apply there as well.
Yeah, there's a difference between buying a Timex and a fake Rolex.
People only seem to feel that cheap copies are bad. There a lot of "boutique" clones of pedals that nobody seems to complain about.
My first pedalboard is probably all clones, though I'm not aware of what they would be. They had to be cheap or I just wouldn't have anything. Most of my musical inspiration has a ton of effects, so clones were my only way to connect with it, given my income. My guitar was $250, my amp was about $270. A $150-$200 pedal just doesn't make sense to me. My chorus and flanger leave something to be desired, my tape delay could be better. My distortion has vampire fangs, which convinces me I sound better. I see the whole rig as a placeholder while I learn. But until I get out of noobsville and out of the poor house, this is the way it has to be. But I'm grateful to have these things. As a kid, playing guitar was maybe my number one dream, and I chose to put it off till I was 45. I decided it couldn't wait any longer, no matter what.
As far as Behringer Trade Dress: I think that plastic enclosure is a stark difference. The user experience is very different and you wouldn't make the mistake of thinking it's a Boss. But Behringer's appearance gives you the clue that it's going to sound a bit like Boss, and that's fine. But you're buying something you could break and it's not the same at all IMO. If you're buying Boss you've got professional, rigorous touring potential. And that's what the extra cost is for. It's durability.
Hey that's the wolf from Fantastic Mr Fox
In the E MELL. I think B brought up some really good points, because I agree on the behr video I was misled into thinking they sound exactly the same myself. I think maybe you should have been a little more critical of them not being as clear sounding as better pedals that's all. Maybe sometimes your nice to a fault. That's why I really respect your opinion and love your video so keep up the good work. ????
Two years later I am so grateful for the MXR Timmy. I waited 4+ years for my King of Tone, but the Timmy just does something different in a very great way, I took a risk getting the MXR Timmy as at the time I had never used one (I had used a KOT and got on the waiting list immediately) and I am so glad I did!
Thank you so much for this thoughtful morning talk.Â
I did find it very informative and helpful in understanding IPR in a broader context. As I understand it, being a university teacher at a computer science department in Denmark, and not an expert in legal matters, I see various industries spending substantial effort and resources, on taking out patents, and suing each other, also in cases that seem extremely thin. This is indeed also the case in the computing industry.Â
I found you focus on trade dress to be very useful, also seen from my point of view as a consumer. And I also liked the way you explained, that circuits are in most cases just variations of earlier devices or data sheets. I believe, that view also fits well with the kind of work you are doing, where it is your reputation as a builder, that is the most important value. I did, however, also note, that you said, that taking out patents, and trying to protect your work was too expensive for it to make sense for you.
On that background, I would like to ask you, how you feel about your possibilities for protecting you innovations, should you e.g. would get to build new kinds of components to be applied in the pedal chain in new ways, that will seem obvious and be copyable as soon they hit the market. Is that just a lost cause? And if so, is that really okay seem from the perspective, that a lot of innovation originates from SME's like your own?
Fantastic Mr. Fox!
Your incumbent president threatened to invade Canada in the last week and as a Canadian this has changed the positivity I formerly felt toward 'made in America' products. I'm not sure yet quite how it changes things. But why should I feel the need to support companies whose employees laugh at jokes about invading us and whose taxes fund a military that is currently threatening to annihilate everyone I know and love in the pursuit of forcefully annexing us to steal our natural resources?
Why is it unethical to instead buy a knockoff from a company in another unpredictable superpower on the other side of the planet that is not currently staring me down? Should Taiwanese people feel positive about buying these Chinese knock off pedals because it helps rural villagers find economic opportunities in factories while the proceeds are going toward the construction of a navy that eyes them down? Probably not, right. So this strange new chapter in US-Canadian relations starts to feel more like that relationship. All the taxes I would spend on US made products, the salaries of those employees making them, the tax on the gas and groceries those employees buy with the wages that are in part possible due to my purchase, the parts manufacturers, even the taxes on UPS fees to ship it here all trickle down toward funding a military that currently has my family in its crosshairs. Even if only a dollar from a $400 pedal ends up trickling down to the military how should I feel about funding that $1 bullet they threaten to use on my neighbour? It feels different now. At least the Chinese knock offs fund problems in someone else's backyard.
In EVERY market branch (fashion, food, sports, music, etc) exist the big and historical brands. And always have grown companies that want to imitate those big names.
But unless they don't breaks a patent or copy the LOGO and NAME, they ARE LEGIT.
Who buys a pedal clone, KNOWS that's not original. Just want to "taste" that flavor, he knows that's not the same, but SIMILAR. Perhaps he likes it and one on ten decides to buy the original.
We must be all honest. You and me AND EVERY people who's love music, HAD BROKEN THOUSANDS OF TIMES THE COPYRIGHT LAWS copying CD, downloading from soul seek or emule… But I'm certain that, in a long run, the music industry had a benefit of this, spreading music more widely than in a completely legal way.
Think about this. I buy a copy, a like it and say: mmm, I like this kind of pedal… imagine how would SOUND THE ORIGINAL, and begin to collect money to buy it.
You need a larger microwave.
I heard the reason Rhett Shull hates tube screamers was he tried starting a screamer clone company and didn’t sell 1 pedal
I’d rather have a cloned pedal than ever watch that particular Star Wars movie again.
People who think cloning is easy should try to copy the Mona Lisa
The more I play the more I realize a couple things…. In my experience 1. kit builds sound better than mass produced pedals regardless of the price… maybe it’s the labor of paint by numbers love.. 2. Any grit pedal after the DOD 250 is redundant.. it is perfect.. and a clone…. 3. I once saw the Danocaster cat rip someone to shreds for copying his headstock logo.. I mean he lit this dude up… he took the post down rather quickly because… well I guess he must have had a moment of clarity that everything he does is… well… A copy…. Ego is a strange thing man…. We have a tendency to believe our own bullshit.. that’s super hilarious and scary… ????
IF CLONE PEDALS COMPANY USE THEIR OWN COMPANY BRAND AND ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT IS A CLONE AND CHANGE SOMETHING HERE AND THERE, WELL THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY, OTHERWISE IS CHEATING, I GOT SCAMMED WITH A KOT, I WAS SENT A "68 PEDALS KOC", PLAYS GREAT, BUT I AM ASHAMED TO USE IT…
30 years ago I gave away my original Univox Superfuzz to a girl I knew who worked at my local grocery. It was the first pedal I had ever bought, which I bought at a local thrift store for $5 (that's not a typo) even earlier than that, probably 45 years ago in the1970's. Last year I became aware of what the current value of an original Superfuzz was, and naturally I thought, "what a dope, I should have kept it, and who knows what that girl ever did with the pedal, and she probably had no idea of what it really was, or it's value, or even capable of recognizing it's sonic properties or sound". Arg, really kind of bugged me, but what can you do, it was 30 years ago, and we all do things we later regret. Certainly I didn't appreciate the pedal back then, and gave it away because I just thought it was a junky noisy pedal. Anyway, a couple of weeks ago I posted a listing for an inexpensive new but decent Strat clone that I had bought for my son, but which he didn't want. So I decided to sell it for about $50- a good deal for a beginner, or someone needing something inexpensive to start out on. I set it up and meticulously adjusted the action, so it played well and sounded pretty good, especially for $50. A couple hours after posting the listing, to my utter astonishment, who answered the ad, of all people, but that same girl whom I had given the Superfuzz so many decades ago. Naturally, the first thing I asked her was, "Do you still have that pedal?!?" She told me that she didn't know, but at one point she gave it to her husband who had been playing in a 60's cover band- but she would look and see if it was still around. I told her that somebody else had already offered to buy the guitar I was selling, but if they flaked out, she could have it. And the I told her that if she still had the pedal, I'd swap the guitar for the old Superfuzz. I did tell her it was selling for crazy amounts of money, but if she was willing, I'd give her the guitar plus some other things as well. At that point I figured she would go online and see what people were paying for the Superfuzz, and that I'd never hear from her again. But again, to my complete astonishment, the next day she messaged me back, and said "I found the pedal!" and even sent me a picture of it, probably had been buried in a closet unused for god knows how long. She told me that she had seen that people were paying $800-$1000 for the pedal, but unbelievably she said I could have it back- but what else would I give her for it. I explained that I didn't want to simply flip the pedal, but rather wanted it for nostalgic reasons and actual use for myself, and that if she was willing to swap I would give her a mint Fender modeling amp, the guitar, cords, a case, and a bunch of other good sounding pedals, including buying her a new Behringer Superfuzz (which was a clone of the original Univox Superfuzz), and would give her free music lessons for life. And then the impossible miracle- She said okay, she would still give it to me, and the next day she came over and we made the swap. I made sure she had a really nice set up, with four good guitar pedals, the amp, the guitar (expertly set up), and all the cords and patch cords she would need, plus a 9v power supply and cord for 5 pedals so she wouldn't have to deal with replacing batteries all the time (a OneSpot). What are the chances- not only that I would ever see her again after 30 years, but that she would still have my Superfuzz, and on top of that, knowing its present value, and that she would be willing to part with it– what are the chances?? Astronomical. But she was good to her word, amazingly generous and not materialistic, and a real friend. I plugged the pedal in, and of course it didn't work at all, but I also kept my word, and gave her everything I promised. She left happy to get all the equipment I had put together for her, I was happy as well, and naturally went right to work seeing if I could get the old pedal to operate. Fortunately it was just an unsoldered battery lead, and the pots needed some cleaning as well as the on/off switch, but after a short time I got it all working as it should. Now the real point of this message- did the old Univox Superfuzz sound exactly like the new Behringer Superfuzz clone? Yes and no. The Behhringer clone sounded perfect, had no extraneous noises, additionally had a treble and bass controls, plus a boost function, plus a 9v power supply jack so it could be used without a battery. It indeed nailed the essential tone of the original- and yet, the original had some imperfections in its sound, on top of not having the tone controls, nor the ability to tweak the volume or amount of distortion which the Behringer allowed. The old Univox pedal had its own inherent imperfections, perhaps due to the age of the components, or to the components themselves (like the original germanium transistors). An analogy might be that of a new perfectly working Mazda Miata sports car, a completely dependable daily driver, as compared to its original inspiration- a 1960's Lotus Elan with all its own inherent imperfections, limitations, impracticality, and quirks. In fact the very things, the noise and wild uncontrollably of the old Univox Superfuzz were the very things that allowed me to part with it so easily 30 years ago, are those very same imperfections that give the old pedal its own uniqueness and personality, which only now I've come to appreciate. You might say that the old Univox pedal- whether the imperfections always existed in the pedal or if its a matter of the degradation of components- its veritable imperfections that make it what it is, and that can be seen as valuable in its own right. These things, like the passing of time and the possible effect or not of the original now 60 year old parts, is something that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to re-manufacture and clone. In the same way, one must never refinish an antique to make it look as good as new- the cracks and wear are part of the intrinsic value of an antique- and so, as long as the basic functionality of a old piece of gear is intact, recognize and value a thing for what it is, with all its warts and foibles- and enjoy a thing for what is, and that something's very problems may be what makes something special.
It's great to hear such a pragmatic and reality based take on this subject. I'm a chef, have been for 25+ years. There is nothing you could do to get a patent on a cheeseburger. Never gonna happen. Like you said, you could trademark "Joshy boys yummy fuzzy burgers!!!" but never patent the burger itself.
Please do keep getting philosophical. 😀
Awesome video, thanks for taking the time and thought to do this. You covered a bunch of vital topics really well here. Thanks!
I'm a game developer, and it's really interesting how this all overlaps with games. Very similar to pedals in a way. The games industry is kinda built on "clones".
For example, the first person shooter starts off as a technological set of achievements joined together, basically an approach to electronics architecture… hardware and software with data flowing through a "circuit", or a "program loop"… rendering techniques, how data flows through a graphics card, etc)… and then there's the "dressing" which is the actual art content.
And people riff on the same approach, over and over, adding their own flavour, but building largely on what's already there in this overall design. And it's kind of celebrated and accepted that one would do something "built on top of" a certain genre/tech/circuit, but you need to do it well, and add your own individual flavour and innovation and creativity on top of that.
Just wanted to make that comment. Music in itself is sort of the same. There's traditions, approaches to chord progressions, types of songs, and people do their own version of it, repeating a formula, but adding their own unique flavour on top. And I guess it's always an interesting balance to give a customer/audience the familiar thing they're looking for, but add your own differences to it.
I guess pedals are a bit different, because a pedal isn't "an end product in itself", it's a TOOL that someone else makes things with. So that adds some complexity about what it means to try to exactly clone something someone else has "invented", and what difference it makes to "change around how the pedal looks on the outside" or make it look "quite similar to the thing you're cloning, etc.
I guess what seems obviously "wrong" is to try to clone something to the point of passing it off AS THAT ACTUAL THING, when it's not. Anyway, just a few thoughts that went through my head. 😀
Clones are fine so long as they don't replicate the look, font or name. It should be obvious that its not the genuine original item. Then after that its caveat emptor. You got what you paid for and if that floats your boat that's just great. Not everybody wants to pay $400 and wait 2 years to get a real KOT. I did. I know it will retain a significant portion of its value and added the mods I chose.
This is a very important topic right now and the political climate will bring these issues to the surface in terms of tariff leveling against Chinese made knock-offs. Personally, i was shopping for a dual drive style pedal and found the Wampler Pantheon Deluxe. The videos I've watched, it really has me sold. Demonfx makes almost the same thing for almost a third the price….difficult for a starving artist to swallow. It comes to principle and wanting to support another "starving artist". So I'll save a bit longer to buy local.
This is a subject Josh knows quite a bit about ????
I had to pinch myself to see if I'm smarter after watching this.
OUCH!
Yep. I'm definitely smarter.
This episode was uncharacteristically serious. Well done Mr. Scott! I learned a lot. Kudos to you and your entire crew. You guys rock!
I live and play in Thailand. Big budget pedals are difficult to find here and when you can find them the import taxes on them make them even more expensive. The Chinese pedals are the norm here and not the exception because they are so cheap and some are very good. Joyo, DemonFX and LY are great just to name a few. I’m lucky to be able to have high end pedals including a Morning Glory which I love. But recently I was thinking of buying a Darkglass overdrive pedal. The fellow in the music store also gave me a Joyo Double Thruster which is a clone of the DG pedal I was demoing. I literally couldn’t tell the difference and the Joyo was 1/4 of the price. I bought the Joyo and couldn’t be happier with it. It’s built like a tank and looks nothing like the DG pedal. In fact I thought it was a better looking pedal with a little light I could turn on as well! I also bought a power supply from them for $50 that also is self charging for my utility board that doesn’t appear to be a ripoff of anything. So I’ve changed my mind on clones in general. If I can find the same pedal circuit at a cheaper price then I’m in. As for the trade dress issue – obviously US law means nothing in this part of the world. Though personally I’d never buy an exact copy like the ones you’ve shown just on personal ethics. grounds. That’s theft and is just wrong and I’ll never support a company that does that.
Isn't using an IR-based system that samples expensive hardware and creates cheap emulations essentially the same thing?
That‘ s the Wolf in the Fantastic Mr. Fox
Two years later an American company is doing copies of everything (Warm Audio) and it is ok for many people. Behringer is also a problem. These are companies I really detest. Western companies are not better today. Sad but true. There will never be products of these companies in my studio.
I believe White Castle patented their square mini burger patties with the four holes. The holes helped them cook faster and simultaneously gave you less meat. ????
Hey Josh… one thing for sure, the Behringer Blues Overdrive BO100 is just an awesome tone. Just as your NOTAKLON which I received and assembled just yesterday!
Pedal clone wars even
This is a very interesting discussion on the seemingly endless opinions and angles on everything about pedals.
But to me, whether or not one business entity of any size is profiting in any way from the work of any other company of any size is rendered irrelevant.
How?
Because, in truth, the limited market for pedals in comparison to the massive market for products like sneakers, clothing, and food is like comparing a mustard seed to an asteroid.
In other words, the pedal business in itself is not lucrative enough to support legal battles over infringements.
I've never once heard of even a large company like Roland, with their many other revenue producing product lines, going after cloners of Boss pedals in a court of law.
The end result if they were to win in court would never be enough to justify the cost of the fight.
Therefore, unless everyone on the planet becomes a guitar player, it's open season for anyone figuring out a way to make a dollar off of pedals.
In the end, the best way to stand out in the pack is to be the one who creates the most interesting, useful, rugged, affordable, and instantly recognizable pedals you can.
Then to get them into the hands of enough players to establish a level of notoriety for great sound on stage and roadworthiness.
I've been a performing guitar player and vocalist for 43 years. That's my two cents worth.
11:15 There isn't a single $30 Analogman clone anywhere on the internet. Those things are $60-70 and more. Who has this ridiculous idea that every clone pedal is $30, anyway? Where did this come from? Someone that doesn't play guitar or buy pedals? ???????????????????? They obviously haven't ever looked at any of the stuff they're talking about or every clone wouldn't be referenced as being $30 like Behringers.
My KOT clone has Nichicon gold and CDE orange drop caps in it. Through hole. Double clad holes. They're all high quality components. And it shows by the price. I paid almost $100 for it.