Why Don’t Amp Modelers Sound Like Real Amps?
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00:00 intro
1:45 I’m balls deep in modeling
2:10 a question from a subscriber
3:10 Digital doesn’t have the fidelity or sparkle
3:30 What Eric Klein from Line 6 says
8:06 What Tosin Abasi does
8:39 if it has to sound like an amp in the room
8:55 Aaron Marshall does this
9:50 What Cliff from Fractal suggests
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#Dont #Amp #Modelers #Sound #Real #Amps
Originally posted by UCkL4v-tohdDZX7kzmL9b2UA at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9-L2dJCII
They sound like tube amp. It just that it does not feel like tube but to the player.
The only thing that's missing at this point is air moving from real speakers in from of you in a real room. That rumble will never be conquered.
Those used to hearing miked amps on inears and studio monitors in isolation see "no" diference.
Yep, I tried everything. I had a Tonex. I have a Samp. I have the boss they all sound fake on some level and it is the interaction between the amp the power section of the amp tubes and the speakers.
Especially gain settings. I just went back to my JX head and 412 cab best sound and feel like ever had.
Because it’s not a real amp
I think there is another wrinkle to this.
Response! I can play through my tube head and cab. Record it. Then play through plugins, and swear blind it sounds different. Then, when you listen back, it's almost exactly the same. No where NEAR as much difference as I thought while O was playing!
I don't think the amp sounded different, my PLAYING was what was different. And that was what I was perceiving.
What I found really helps is just simply turning the IR itself up. Before I had third party IRs I was using the Helix cab block and what I would do is run an EQ and a boosted after the cab block. Also, if you have a headrush put the volume at about noon and then control the volume on the Helix accordingly. Eventually you'll find that sweet spot. It's all about the volumes can really help it cut through the mix
I think it’s the different ways valves and digital output frequencies . With a tube amp as the tube is charged and dissapetes I think the eq spectrum fluctuates but in a digital modeller the eq frequencies are all on until they fade . I know that sounds weird but I truly think that what’s makes the differences . A digital version is such a snapshot repeated over and over but a tube amp has so many little differences and different frequencies take different time lengths to develope and get to your ear but the digital version is the same perfectly the same each strum . I’ve had fractal , Kemper , line 6 , head rush and now have a tonex and a matchless dc30 and a Sattelite amp . And checking Captures on each always had the same end result
So many people ask me on my channel "What Amp?" to get my Jimmy Page Tone… Its the pickups and modeler !
After watching your video and you praises of the Boss GX100 I immediately bought it. What a mistake that was, the thing sounded absolutely horrible. I sent it back after 5 just minutes. Every single modeller effects unit I've ever bought and tried sounded synthetic, artificial and lifeless I returned them all. The tones were scooped with no mids or lows and had absolutely zero warmth or any organic feel to them. They may sound wonderful on fake YouTube but when you're in the same room as one playing it they are utterly horrid, lifeless and sterile. Now that I've learned to take everything you say with a bucket of salt with all these effects units you keep promoting and flogging is the FM 9 really any different?
Amp sims/modellers don't sound exactly the same as real amps for the same reason analog emulation plugins don't sound the same as the actual analog hardware: there are far too many non-linearities in an analog circuit to be completely faithfully emulated by 0s and 1s. But that's okay. Plugins and hardware are both awesome, and having the best of both worlds is the best call. 🙂
From an EE point of view: The real problem with digital amps / modelers is this: You can not repair those devices in near future and therefore they will end up als digital waste. Here is why: Custom Firmware on custom ICs which are proprietary. All those modelers rely on some kind of RAM and microcontroller as well as CPUs which are outdated and won't be produced anymore (needless to say, that it takes good soldering skills for SMD packages). In the end all those modelers are perfectly fine for the studio or on the go, but you can not built up a relationship to your equipment because you know, it's just digital waste. A tube amp can always be repaired – even in the future. They are so freaking simple, there are even people who manufacture their own tubes and wind their own transformers. This is not rocket science – that's the beauty (in addition to the tone). Just grab an old Fender, Marshall. That's history… Try that with an AxeFX or Kemper in let's say 50 years… Yeah… It's probably dead because the RAM reached it's maximum write cycles. There are even modelers with an built in SD card (!) from which the firmware loads… What the hell? It isn't even an industrial grade SD Card… So this is the real problem I am seeing as an engineer.
Imagine playing rock/metal not having an amp on stage. May as well leave your balls at home too for convenience.
You don't need a tube amp to get the "amp in the room" sound. Any power amp into a cab is enough for every modeler out there, that sounds decent to begin with.
I don't really get why people have this kind of problem, because the solution is not only so easy, but obvious and intuitive as well.
It’s just the old guard doing what people in that position do. Stick to what is familiar, trusted albeit outdated and talk shit to justify doing so
That’s it! Well said!
Click bait. They sound better, power amp and normal cab
To get a pleasing and balanced guitar tone, most often two or more mic's will be mixed and equalized. But the same can be done directly with IR's themselves which is a useful shortcut when you're bounded to using a single IR in a live or rehearsal situation, or even when recording. A single mic IR can often have a very specific sound with some tonal spikes or dips which does not sound appropriate for all your sounds. You can do this yourself in a DAW or free IR's can be found online which are already premixed from multiple single mic IR's. I found one which I'm very satisfied with and I use the same one for years now in all my IR pedals and plugins and use it for every genre. Since it's already has a balanced tone, some gentle further equalizing is all what's needed to shape the tone (apart from from preamp choice and other effects of course).
Is this guy physically handicapped in some way or why does he always sit with his arms rested at some sort of chair? Also looks like he’s sitting on the floor at the same time. I don’t get it..
Well I profiled my amp and when I use the same DI the profile and the recording sound identical.
I Bought a QC because i was tired of my amp sound so different in the room, compared to when micd up, and heard through inears. I eq the IR/Cab with a low cut at around 80hz and the high cut at around 6000hz. I then have an eq at the end of my chain (after reverbs and delays) with pretty much the same settings. I do this to not put out any frequencies an amp wouldnt.This, to me, sounds really great, and incredibly similar when heard through my inears, if i have a good engineer turning the knobs! When i dont hear it trhough a PA or inears, i will turn off the cab/ir but keep the EQ on, and go into the return of my pretty cheap boss nextone. The nextone also has some pretty decent power amp modelling options
I have a hunch that there is still room to improve the frontend, where the signal from the guitar is digitized. I have found that putting a really high quality DI box into, say, the XLR input on a Helix does something very interesting. Or the Benson germanium boost set to unity straight up.
Why use cab sim at all? Just get a real celestial speaker and cab and use a direct profile on a Kemper.
Stop using impulse responses and run it through a tube power amp. What I do like is run and ir to the from and I run one out with out it through my power amp into mesa.
I've played live music for more than 15 years using digital and analog rigs. If you want to be heard and find the perfect spot on a full band mix, use a valve amp and mic the speaker.
I for one, don't miss the "amp in the room thing" one single bit. Sure, it can sound magnificent if you are playing by yourself. Sure, we all love that feeling of the low-end punch. BUT, when you are playing with a band (regardless of whether you are in band practice or on stage) the amp in the room usually just creates a lot of problems. First, an amp speaker is super directional. If you move just a few feet, the sound is totally different. The same if you are in the audience. Second, you don't like the sound straight out of the speaker which is why most guitarists want their speaker to be on the ground aimed at their hips. Third, it is a nightmare for a the FOH engineer. A guitar cab just isn't a good way to project the guitar sound on a stage or to the audience. It just is not. I hear so often people claiming that amp modellers sound "thin" or get lost in the mix when playing live. I guarantee that it is because the sound is not dialed in correctly. You need much more mid range than most think or are used to playing with in a studio or with your headphones. You need to seriously cut the lows. It amazes me how many (even experienced guitarists) really have no clue how to dial in a good tone in a live setting. Often, because they rarely listen to how it sounds from an audience perspective or from where your band members are standing. A good FOH engineer always tweaks the sound in ways that most guitarists have no clue about. The sound a guitarist want to hear isn't usually a balanced tone that sits well in the mix. I mean, keyboardists have been using modellers for ages. They rarely need old outdated speakers to be satisfied or cut through the mix.
Sometimes I think about how good I would be if I spent all the time I waste watching videos about guitar/amp tones on actually playing
I’ve always been a tube amp purist until I got some amp sims and realized how great they sound and was able to record in my house anytime I wanted. You pair these sims with a great room sim plugin and it’s 90% of the way there, IMO. Pair that with good mixing and good production and it’s barely a compromise.
Use eqs, send the guitar mix with your favorite cab ir in front, and use whatever line out with EQ into amps, fx loops of tube amps, transisor power amp whatever, use real guitar cabs with good volume and it feel and sound good. Dont be afraid to eq the sound.
Two vamps are awesome and like Keith Richards said perfection from the beginning. If you can’t live with the modeling, then I suggest put Ernie ball casters on your speaker cabinets and your combo lamps and roll them around. That’s what I did. I never had a great high game, but I had a music man him which is awesome and its day. I’d roll it in wherever I wanted it on its side, popped the casters off, stuck it in the back tried to put my amp in a place where I could really hear it crank the thing up And I had a Wawa pedal clean and dirt channel basically that was it perfection lol. The problems with a real tube app is what you hear and whatever everybody else hears is not the same. It’s harder to make things up than the microphones can fail the room could have noises that you don’t like, etc. etc. When I first got my first modeling amp, it was the line 6. Their first one the first time I was able to get high gain sounds it also get fender amp sounds plus enough effects and stereo that ran through a 212 inch cabinet if I remember right And you did get an amp in the room Sound maybe it wasn’t as authentic as your 10 grand mark Ness boogie so now I have a helix and twoFRFR speakers that I set right in front of and if you play low volumes that has a great sound, but if you crank it up, it gets too bright I think that’s the characteristic of our speaker. Adjust your knobs for the higher levels. The same thing you would have to do with the tamp. If you’re playing live, each room would have its characteristics and you’d still have to adjust your tone. It’s like the acoustic guitar you can play your wood acoustic guitars at home. They sound great the minute. You need to record them. You have to put microphones on them. You have to put, some kind of reverb on it maybe even a ribbon in the room and you can get some great but on the stage it’s a big problem. Sure they’ve got it sounding really good and using any ears and low stage volumes, etc. they’ve come along way with processing guitars, what a bunch of trouble. Grabbing your grand two bands and trying to take them to a gig where they don’t even want you to bring them anymore breaking your back, rolling them around somebody spill a beer on it somebody drop it. And doesn’t really sound that much different, I say they don’t. I love a good vamp so digital modeling is a guitarist dream. You can buy a model and have the whole kitchen sink of the fax ants cabinets IR whatever you want the whole store stuff and with my helix total control how I turn it on change it stomp turn things on and off in the single switch. If you just have a clean metal and a dirty sound, that’s all you play. You’ll get your too bad and do it but if you wanna plug your acoustic guitar, you wanna process that real quick wanna send it to your doll? You wanna take it to a gig sure you have to reset some presets so it sounds right, you know the sound check I don’t know why everybody’s crying over it lol
Great video. I agree that a highly directional guitar speaker (at higher freqs) with room reflections is never going to be captured with IRs that are captured with mics and then reproduced with full range and much less directional speakers. Are IRs available that remove mics from the equation? I guess I want to hear a guitar speaker sound, not a mic’s sound
Modellers don't model the sound of an amp in the room. They model the sound of a recorded amp. That's a different thing. It's like hearing the voice of someone speaking directly to you, versus hearing a radio DJ's voice that's gone through a mic, preamp, compression, limiting, eq and a speaker.
I still use a tube power amp and cab with my AxeFx Ultra. Sound wise it’s probably a minimal difference but feel and touch response wise it’s something I prefer. Newer modelers sound amazing listening back but all have a different feel when playing through them. Personal preference.
Because they aren't….
I guess the best thing is to let go of the amp in the room sound and fully commit to a front of the house sound. Because even when you have an amp on stage still your sound goes through a mic and gets processed by FOH. What people hear is not what you hear on stage anyway.
I think maybe a good comparison would be a 4K television. No matter how crisp and clear the picture is, when you see things in real life, it is light reflected off of something back to your eyes, where as a television is light projected to your eyes. The television is the light source, whereas when you see something in real life it is a reflection. As clear as the TV may be, it's not going to seem real because your brain is perceiving it differently.